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Post by davetipping on Nov 10, 2010 19:41:31 GMT
There's management and management...you can have too much of a good thing. Sometimes less is better, and cheaper too.
If pike are an issue at Sandwath it begs the question, why are the small roach there in good numbers?
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Post by knowbody on Nov 10, 2010 22:45:17 GMT
Nice one Mr K more like days gone by, things were going a bit stale werent they.. I knew you would pick up on sturgeon, cats etc, but you are agreeing with us mate, mismanagment can and must be put right. Things have been put right all over the world, so why not two acre ponds in Yorkshire. Steve Frim, I'm not here to score points or critisise, we want the very same thing, good fishing. As Gus said sometimes you don't get what you want. (by the way Gus, I went to the local chinese, you wont like this but its live carp they pay for, pike are too boney) I do aggree with you Frim, there does seem to be a lot of small pike in there, but messing with them even more at this stage of the game seems like overkill to please a few anglers well up in the club ranks that still live in the past, they hate pike and now with the advent of the comi water expect every stillwater to produce like woodlands. All I asked was this, before you steam in killing/moveing the pike, just stop for a moment to ask yourself why they got there? Address what you have done in the past to make the place like this. (bad management?) I would hate to see this place put back 5 years for a short term apeasment. You don't need to do that, polo is stiff with fish for those that want that sort of thing (good management?) Dave makes a very good point, you obviosly have good recrutment of silvers.............maybe the nets did'nt tell the whole truth? I realy do don my cap to you for shareing things to us the great unwashed, I also know you will do whatever you like in the long run. I do also hope you listen, and take on bord some of our coments. We are all anglers, we may not all want the same thing from the hobby, but at the end of the day we all stab fish for fun. Best fishes...........Nobody
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Post by frim on Nov 11, 2010 1:46:11 GMT
The whole point of all this is to make sure we "stop for a moment" and take on board comments, bloody hell years ago no one ever knew what was going on it was secret service, its not any more! and I think you know I am not old school or living in the past, I'm trying to bring us into this century and put everyones points forward. The amount of information available to us now should be used to stop us making the mistakes that all clubs made not that many years ago, but remember they were working blind, we aren't. I always pass on information given to me by groups like the EA or other consultative, usually there recommendations are based on proven facts and figures, not a match or pleasure angler that remembers a red letter day, and has little idea of what it takes to sustain a fishery. I'm not putting any one down when I say this, but I talk to some brilliant anglers on the match scene every week, fantastic anglers but very few know anything, about anything more than catching sh-t loads of fish, but the same goes for lots of pleasure anglers "its never a lack of skill " but always the venues crap! This thread could be the start to give others the information and a few figures we have, they can read them and then at least give us an opinion on what they have seen. This is recommended stocking levels from the EA and DEFRA. Categories of still water fisheries. NATURAL Fish populations maintained by natural recruitment 200lb per acre. IMPROVED Fish populations natural recruitment/some stocking 325lb per acre INTENSIVE Maintained by stocking to maximum density 750lb COMMERCIAL Max 1200lb acre is high risk This one picture of a single sweep of the net on polo is probably the total stock that our lake should hold, and is over the recomendations for even a commercial. Should we turn a blind eye and leave things alone?? Steve
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Post by stumpy on Nov 11, 2010 7:19:42 GMT
I totaly agree with you Frim.
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Post by knowbody on Nov 12, 2010 0:01:56 GMT
Frim, Haveing never fished polo I realy car'nt offer anything constructive. What I can say is this, the way to manage any living thing is to understand the place they live in. I recon you will get far better results manageing there home than trying to manage them. Not all waters are the same. Even if they look like they are.
One pond may look like the next while your stood on the bank, this is never the case though. Water quality, bottom makeup, even the trees growing round the pond can have far reaching efects on what lives in it, some species may benafit from reedmace, some not. So every part of the pond has a role to play, dare I say, even preditors.
Anglers tend to think fish, usually the ones they like best. I guess knotford is a good example of enviroment against anglers, the good anglers deal with it and continue to catch, usualy better and better fish as it's left alone. The bad/nieave anglers mone and winge about anything that "might" be the reason that they can'ot catch and keep buying tackle. (I payed for it so it must work syindrome)
All I know for sure is the enviroment of any water dictates what lives in it. If anglers were stopped from fishing woodlands tomorrow it would not be a very pretty sight in a year or two.
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Post by rickyg on Nov 12, 2010 14:46:34 GMT
knowbody "appears" to be a well imformed chap,maybe he has some suggestions to improve sandwath , if he thinks improvement is possible,or even warrented .I have fished sandwath on and off for 35 years,originally it was a snaggy ,gin clear pond where you would catch small catches of small roach /perch, odd jack pike were seen but never a problem.Tench in them schoolboy days were only rumours.Over the years the lake was cleared of the snags, fish were probably stocked, my catches did not really improve, odd tench were caught, some big roach were often seen cruising,but seldom caught in the clear water.The best, and most consistant fishing was in my opinion 15 to 10 years ago.Gus Greaves put a load of horse muck in the lake, some bream were stocked, big bream as I recall, not intentionally, small fish were ordered, but the stock turned up big .This combination seemed to colour up the water, the tench fishing came on leaps and bounds,roach/perch catches improved in both size and numbers. Then as the lake cleared again catches dropped off. Since the carp were stocked a few years ago I have not fished the pond much, but every time I have fished, I have caught tench on the pole and pellet.The pike seem to be thriving due to the clear water, they are good sight feeders and the pond conditions suit them nicely. They may be more fish in the pond than catches suggest, but no animal will feed with abandon when it is been heavily predated.We need to turn the conditions to favour the prey, the fishing will improve , pike populations will normalise . the question knowbody is how do we create the right conditions,the pond has shown it has the potential, can we give it a nudge in the right direction
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Post by frim on Nov 12, 2010 18:23:25 GMT
Totaly agree with last posts, I think were getting to how all this should work.
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Post by knowbody on Nov 12, 2010 23:08:58 GMT
knowbody "appears" to be a well imformed chap,maybe he has some suggestions to improve sandwath , if he thinks improvement is possible,or even warrented .I have fished sandwath on and off for 35 years,originally it was a snaggy ,gin clear pond where you would catch small catches of small roach /perch, odd jack pike were seen but never a problem.Tench in them schoolboy days were only rumours.Over the years the lake was cleared of the snags, fish were probably stocked, my catches did not really improve, odd tench were caught, some big roach were often seen cruising,but seldom caught in the clear water.The best, and most consistant fishing was in my opinion 15 to 10 years ago.Gus Greaves put a load of horse muck in the lake, some bream were stocked, big bream as I recall, not intentionally, small fish were ordered, but the stock turned up big .This combination seemed to colour up the water, the tench fishing came on leaps and bounds,roach/perch catches improved in both size and numbers. Then as the lake cleared again catches dropped off. Since the carp were stocked a few years ago I have not fished the pond much, but every time I have fished, I have caught tench on the pole and pellet.The pike seem to be thriving due to the clear water, they are good sight feeders and the pond conditions suit them nicely. They may be more fish in the pond than catches suggest, but no animal will feed with abandon when it is been heavily predated.We need to turn the conditions to favour the prey, the fishing will improve , pike populations will normalise . the question knowbody is how do we create the right conditions,the pond has shown it has the potential, can we give it a nudge in the right direction Ricky, thanks for the post, this long term knowlage is allways going to be important when your trying to get to grips with something you car'nt actually see. You have to ask yourself what does the pond/lake naturaly want to be, from your post it would seem it leans towards a clearwater habitat? Adding manure caused a tempory period of good fishing. then it went back to what it realy is. I think sometimes anglers expect too much. I don't have all the answers, I never said that I did, if it were me stocking the lake, I would just add sizable bream, they are preditor proof to all but otters, the pike would then be forced into eating there way to a balence. One thing with stocking carp (which may of afected this lake?) They atract carp anglers, in turn carp anglers tend to use lots of bait that only carp can eat, this does push other species out. The knock on is all that food goes through the carp mostly half digested, (cypranids have a very inaficiant digestive system, thats why goldfish are allways hungry) this is in turn great food for small fish. (hence the good recrutment of silvers, followed by a good recrutment of jack's to deal with them) The carp getting fed this free banquit of goodys tend to do well, and out compeat the bream and tench in the long run, not so much a problem in a big water, but magnified in a small water. This is just me guessing though. If you realy want rid of the pike that badly? to make things easy get some clicker barbs (psudorasbora) in there, give it a year then phone the EA.........They will then happily exterminate all life in the whole lake for free, leaving you to restock as you see fit But I did'nt tell you that..................... By the way pike will thrive anywere, coloured water or not! I've cought blind pike more than once.
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Post by gusgreaves on Nov 14, 2010 23:09:26 GMT
Knowbody I know some of the things you have quoted are on the right track and adds to the debate but I do not think a water of that size can sustain such a large number of pike. I would have thought a pike angler would be looking to catch a big fish just as a carp angler would but I would think the pike are never going to get to specimen size in a highly populated water. I have heard all the talk about pike eating other pike but I have used live pike (when live-baiting was an acceptable method) but have never caught a pike with a pike. Also in the days when almost every big pike caught was killed and stuffed there was often many species in the stomach, including perch but never in my experience a pike. Perhaps you have evidence of this.
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Post by knowbody on Nov 15, 2010 0:11:36 GMT
Knowbody I know some of the things you have quoted are on the right track and adds to the debate but I do not think a water of that size can sustain such a large number of pike. I would have thought a pike angler would be looking to catch a big fish just as a carp angler would but I would think the pike are never going to get to specimen size in a highly populated water. I have heard all the talk about pike eating other pike but I have used live pike (when live-baiting was an acceptable method) but have never caught a pike with a pike. Also in the days when almost every big pike caught was killed and stuffed there was often many species in the stomach, including perch but never in my experience a pike. Perhaps you have evidence of this. Hi Gus, hope all is well with your better half I do aggree that this water is too small for lots of pike, but the fact is, there in there. (this you won't change) I'm just worryed that tapping lots of the small ones on the head will make a bigger mess in a year or three when the big ones fade away from angling presure, old age, and ignorance. (pike have a short life span and a very fast growth rate compared to most coarse fish) Not to mention takeing the wrong small ones out of the developeing equasion that is Sandwath. As for pike eating pike.......I could bore you here. THE method for catching 25lb+ pike on the river Bure not too long ago was a 3lb jack, don't belive me? Get your hands on a copy of "Dimples to wrinkles and beyond" by Bill Palmer. If you think the lake is too small to produce a pike of worthy proportions? Take a look at Steve Harpers new book "Dream Pike", It would appear that a guy called Stephen Abbot had a large one twice (33lb 6oz) from a very small pond near Doncaster. This pond was a good tench fishery too at the time. Hell you netted a 22 and saw good fish aviod capture! Bradford City AC killed a 30+ fish from Stavely Lakes a few years ago, it's still full of jacks. Now for the big one, how does a 67lb pike from a 150meter by 150meter pond sound? This is europes biggest authenticated pike. Admittedly it was netted, and it had eaten the pond owners duck colection but it was from a small pond. (more mammoth pike by fred buller) But appart from that freak duck fed beast, I catch pike every year on jack deads. They are are usually better than average size wise. If I ever catch a jack of less than 1.5lb's it gets a new life in my freezer. best.
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Post by davetipping on Nov 15, 2010 20:15:55 GMT
I have to agree with knowbody here. We mess about with waters too much, when they should be allowed to find their own balance, with minimal interference.
Incidentally, I've fished Sandwath since 1971 so I well remember the early days Ricky mentions in his post. Remember Paddy the bailiff in his caravan Ricky? I used to get sent to the local pub to fetch him some drinks because he was banned!
I agree the fishing was relatively hard in the clear water, but there were tench that were big by national standards in those days if you were prepared to make the effort to fish early. Personally I wish the fishing was still like that. Lots of bites = no challenge = tedium.
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Post by kevrich on Nov 16, 2010 10:45:09 GMT
I agree with much of what has been said from both sides, i feel what Frim seems to be suggesting is reasonable and not over-management, it would be cheap to harvest some of the silver fish from Polo and would likely be positive for that lake also.
Unfortunately doing nothing tends not to achieve anything, but the stocking of Carp may have lead to the present situation that you have now, but we live in a world where bums on seats/ seat boxes means everything, in that respect every water is a commercial!. Sandwath is one of the poorest rated stillwaters on the leeds book so it's understandable the committee want to do something about it.
But please, no more Carp.
Kev
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Post by rickyg on Nov 17, 2010 16:45:00 GMT
I too remember the irish bailif,he was on you the minute you set up , checking your yearbook.I think he hated kids, he was always trying to get us to go to the bacon factory pond nearby at sherbun. There is a lake less than a mile away at barkston ash, it was full of tench,we used to creep through the woods and poach it.I think it was owned by the exclusive west riding anglers at the time, but I think it has been dregded since and ruined. does Dave Tipping think sandwath is a balanced or imbalanced fishery,bearing in mind it is not a natural fishery, it is a flooded brick pit.The fish in there arrived somehow, maybe natures way , certainly man has intervened,maybe even the pike were stocked.I agree with Knowbody, we give the fish the right enviroment and they will thrive,the only thing thriving at sandwath is pike, and I am not anti -pike.but stocking can be a success, the polo pond is an example. Another trip down memory lane -Blacker Dam.When Leeds took control probably nearly 30 years ago it was a defunct trout fishery, it was stocked with 500 small carp and 100 large tench,further stockings from the temple newsam stock ponds of mixed silvers /perch resulted in a fine fishery.There were bites om even the coldest winter days, within a few years the carp were sizable,and today are specimen size. Stocking can work , there have also been failures though, we need to understand why
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Post by knowbody on Nov 17, 2010 23:47:30 GMT
Kev, I don't think anyone would blame Frim for trying? and being open about what the club is up too realy is a bonus. I realy think Frim is a bit of "god send" in this respect. (I was going to say hero, but it's only my yearbook at stake ) At the same time, I think doing nothing as you put it can make a BIG differance sometimes. I did say "sometimes" there. Waters are not factorys with quotas to meet. They are wild, even the man made ones to some extent. I realise you need members, but not all members want the same thing from the hobby. A bit of diversaty is good for the whole lot of us (even nature) if you ask me. Sandwath may be a cracker of a water if you give it long enough without fiddling, but we will never know if we keep fiddling. It obviously has potensial, it's on its knees (acording to anglers) yet it throws a 22lb pike up. Thats a good fish by anyones standerds, to me it shows a very healthy water. Now if that 22 is only there because of the clubs stockings over the years? Then it's as Gus thinks, a water were the club has for years spent our money feeding some pike. That at best only me seems to fish for, (thanks by the way, I did'nt expect this level of comittment from the club when I joined) Now you have to ask the question who is right? Is it a man made pike pond or a fishery that could be good for everybody. How do we find the answer? We car'nt get rid of the pike without poison, so lets try getting rid of the stocking? If the stocking is the problem the pike will fade away to acceptable levels. If you wanna keep bashing your head against a wall keep feeding the percieved problem. I find all this funny in an ironic sort of way, the anglers bang the pike on the head, then the pike make the anglers bang there heads agains a brick pit wall ;D Anyone for golf?
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Post by frim on Nov 23, 2010 0:47:07 GMT
Catches, condition and the average size of fish in polo would improve by the cropping of small fish, though I am not sure that Sandwath would benefit from another glut of tiny silvers. Unlike Polo Sandwath has never seemed able to sustain the stocks given to it, and only the larger Irish bream stocked in the mid 90s gave anything longterm. I've spent hours with Dave and Graham trolling through the old stocking program's and its becoming obvious that most times less is best. I think the survey results have opened up a few anglers eyes and the figures I will show now will open them a bit more. SANDWATH STOCKING "all certified" 1992 250lb ROACH 100X 1LB BREAM 100X 6-8" BREAM
1993 1100X 6"BREAM 1994 1200X CRUCIANS 300 X CHUB 100 X 7" BARBEL
1995 813 X 1LB BREAM 375LBX LARGE BREAM 210LBX 2LB TENCH 100X 8" TENCH
1996 500LB MIXED ROACH BREAM
1997 1000X 6" ROACH
1998 1000X 12OZ BREAM
1999 200LB MIXED COARSE FISH
FOOT AND MOUTH
2002 200LB MIXED COARSE FISH
2004 600LB MIXED COARSE FISH
2005 200X1LB TROUT 200LB BREAM TENCH
2007 250LB BREAM ROACH TENCH
2008 1200X 6"8" CARP
2009 50X 3LB CARP
Its accepted that Pike ratios should be about 30lb of Pike to 300lb of available prey fish. Whats your thoughts? Steve
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