|
Post by grayson on Aug 9, 2015 17:23:40 GMT
Many folk who see otters actually see mink I'd guess , judging by some of the misidentifications I have encountered And I am not at all clear why a barbel trumps an otter in the overall scheme of things. We love barbel , Springwatch viewers love otters and nature doesn't give a d**n who is better. Otters or not,the river I fish the most produces more and far bigger fish than it did when I first fished it in the early 70s - I don't own rose tinted specs ....
"we all see them too frequently " - so how much is that ? How often would be acceptable ? How accurate are people's records? Do people keep them at all ?
I have fished two stretches of river last year which I was warned off because there were no fish and lots of otters (so they were eating pies?). Sure enough when I arrived there was little or no sign of the river having been fished much if at all. Two full days- no otters seen(not unusual as they are fairly nocturnal(so are people breaking the rules by night fishing and do they have infra red specs to see the otters then ? ) - and all I can say is the otters had not eaten the dozen chub to 5lb plus I caught. A catch which in the 70s would have got me in the Angling Times I bet .
|
|
|
Post by keepitreal on Aug 9, 2015 17:44:09 GMT
Exactly Grayson, Anglers causing a fuss about a 20lb barbel should be causing a fuss as to why there aren't good numbers of barbel in there rivers. They should be asking why the barbel aren't breeding successfully.
But then the fish probably wouldn't be so big, so either you accept at some point, those big fish are going to die and your going to have to wait for the next brood of stockies come through. Or you fish somewhere where the barbel population is thriving, looking after its own numbers, even with the so called 'otter threat'and accept that a real monster sized fish is unlikely.
|
|
|
Post by Eddie on Aug 9, 2015 17:46:02 GMT
Personally I'm not anti otter, just not happy with then put into rivers where I don't believe it's a good idea, as I've already said, leave nature to sort itself out, doesn't need mans interference. We might not have needed to waste money fencing off still waters in that case! And as Grayson and others have said it's not all doom and gloom, but it breaks any genuine river anglers heart to see or hear of their target fish killed by otters, especially specimens. No one would mind if they just ate trout lol.
Eddie.
|
|
|
Post by smithleback on Aug 9, 2015 17:49:09 GMT
Its sickening it really is,saw a dead barbel at newton about 4yr back,partially eaten,then last year saw an otter wi a barbelin its mouth,when it copped me it dived hopefully the fish escaped cos it were struggling with it anyway[greedy b*stard]Think barbel are pretty static in winter[remember nearly treading on 1 at linton wading,poked in gently 2 or 3 times then it were off,pissball prey for an otter ]Trout and grayling active all year round[grayling especially in winter]so harder prey for tarka i think,anyway time will tell but it sure is annoying
|
|
|
Post by nige_LS7 on Aug 9, 2015 18:02:07 GMT
The combination of lightning speed and habitat surely means trout and grayling can get away from and hide from predators more easily; it is my theory as to why trout are coming to dominate the Aire now, from source right down now through Leeds as far as Rothwell I'd say (the Aire is cormorant and goosander central; otters are obviously less relevant on such an urban river than on most of our other rivers, but are thriving now on stretches between Bingley and Skipton).
|
|
|
Post by grayson on Aug 9, 2015 18:57:26 GMT
Well maybe that is ecology at work-I don't know. But I am concerned that otters are such a popular target for problems with fishing (if they are actual problems rather than perceived ones) because otters are often visible and everybody knows they eat fish . Ergo- see otter , that's we I blanked. Sadly it ain't that simple at all. And sadly far too many anglers don't like confronting complex issues and/or are too d**n lazy to actually do something positive by helping scientifically to identify reasons for perceived decline.
Here's an example- last year I attended a meeting organised by the Dales River Trust about the Wharfe. General feeling was that its quality has declined and the many people there (anglers, bird watchers, ecologists, farmers etc )were broadly agreed on this. I have seen otters, slurry run off , pollution , drought and lots of other reasons quoted- most being conjecture and not backed by anything more than anecdote - but ok . it's a start .
I asked what data we had on invertebrate populations as they are of course the key building block of river life . The answer was not very much- I am very happy to be corrected but so far as I could gather only the trout water clubs in the upper reaches were being monitored. I couldn't bloody well believe it - it isn't difficult (I bug sample several rivers myself ) but amidst all the silly calls for restocking (in a river without food - smart ..) few, if any , could be arsed to do something positive by actually getting raw data . Much easier to moan into one's beer about effing otters eh ?
|
|
|
Post by patterdalewilson on Aug 9, 2015 19:33:04 GMT
Make your mind up grayson one minute otters are visible and the next they are mink or too elusive to be seen.
At toppy I have seen a family of three otters a adult with two cubs ? Or whatever the young of these fish/mammal/bird killing beasties are called. They were playing on the far bank totaly unconcerned about my presence , not the shy elusive creatures a lot of people think they are.
Another encounter at Newton on my arrival at my chosen peg the first thing I saw was a mink only a few yards away swimming towards the far bank. I think it was scared off by me tackling up. A short while afterwards I heard a loud splash like a labrador jumping in the river (not unusual there). Next thing I hear snorting/watery breathing noises I'm still thinking dog. No its not a dog next thing out pops said otter on my peg no more than about 10ft away from where I'm sat. And then it proceeds to saunter upstream on the waters edge unconcerned of my presence before slipping away into the river. In my opinion unless you are too far away to see properly the two are easily distinguished , the otter being a lot bigger than most people expect. Theres also a post on here of a otter taking a adult duck that someone had been hand feeding.
Rant over . Mick
|
|
|
Post by neptune on Aug 9, 2015 20:00:49 GMT
Well maybe that is ecology at work-I don't know. But I am concerned that otters are such a popular target for problems with fishing (if they are actual problems rather than perceived ones) because otters are often visible and everybody knows they eat fish . Ergo- see otter , that's we I blanked. Sadly it ain't that simple at all. And sadly far too many anglers don't like confronting complex issues and/or are too d**n lazy to actually do something positive by helping scientifically to identify reasons for perceived decline. Here's an example- last year I attended a meeting organised by the Dales River Trust about the Wharfe. General feeling was that its quality has declined and the many people there (anglers, bird watchers, ecologists, farmers etc )were broadly agreed on this. I have seen otters, slurry run off , pollution , drought and lots of other reasons quoted- most being conjecture and not backed by anything more than anecdote - but ok . it's a start . I asked what data we had on invertebrate populations as they are of course the key building block of river life . The answer was not very much- I am very happy to be corrected but so far as I could gather only the trout water clubs in the upper reaches were being monitored. I couldn't bloody well believe it - it isn't difficult (I bug sample several rivers myself ) but amidst all the silly calls for restocking (in a river without food - smart ..) few, if any , could be arsed to do something positive by actually getting raw data . Much easier to moan into one's beer about effing otters eh ? Very thought provoking comments, but surely the decline of some of the Yorkshire rivers in the last few years has to be down to some common denominator and we all know that Otters have become established residents on most of our rivers. I personally have been fishing Yorkshire rivers for about 50 years now and have never seen an otter until the last 3 or 4 years.
|
|
|
Post by stevo53 on Aug 9, 2015 20:14:32 GMT
Sorry but a lot of these posts seem to focus on anglers rightly or wrongly moaning about the otters impact on fish stocks, ok that does come across as the main focus. But hang on a minute there are a lot more issues that do not appear to be getting much of an airing, It Is suggested that the otters along with the mink are having a significant impact on other wildlife. I recall quite clearly that water voles forty to fifty years ago were a common sight on the Yorkshire Derwent,I have not seen any on the Derwent for many years. I am not sure If the water vole Is a protected species or not maybe someone will know the answer,but the majority of focus seems to be otters v fish. Not surprising really on a fishing forum but what about the other wildlife, If the introduction of otters has caused an imbalance In nature and numerous other creatures are suffering decline as a result shouldnt Natural England be looking at some form of control legislation to address the problem presuming that problem exists. I presume mink are not a protected species and steps have been made to eradicate or reduce there numbers, but they appear to be on the increase, maybe Its mink and other predators that are contributing to the bad press that otters are recieving from anglers. Of course the powers that be are to busy spending many millions on a scheme to restore rivers to there natural state and as long as otters remain so high In the popularity stakes nothing Is likely to change. Regardless Its a mess In my opinion.
|
|
|
Post by grayson on Aug 10, 2015 7:06:04 GMT
Restoring rivers to their natural state sounds a pretty good objective to me actually.
To clarify my point about 'visibility ' of otters; they are easy to see when they are out and about on the river as they are big and not frightened of us . But they mainly operate at times when we anglers aren't out and about . That's why I see spraint and otter prints frequently but otters less so.
Mink? Released by stupid animal liberationists and responsible (or so I have read)for the disappearance of water voles. But the trend seems to be (on some pretty crude data ) that mink move out when otters move in and I am seeing the very occasional vole again on two river systems. I see far fewer mink now and they are indeed trapped and shot .
Voles are of course protected by the way .
|
|
|
Post by mortia on Aug 10, 2015 7:26:41 GMT
I have fished yorkshire rivers for knocking on 50 years now (off the beaten track away from the regular car parking pegs)- for the first 40 years I never saw an otter. But in the last 6 or 7 they started to show up ( the first I saw was near Ripon), then I started to see them regularly on the Wharfe & Nidd. I saw them at all times during daylight & more often towards dusk on regular patrols in their developing territories. What I have noticed in the last two seasons though is that their habits are changing. They are now reverting back to their more wild ways & becoming more secretive. I still see them but I suspect they are starting to balance out their territories (they do not tolerate each other very well)& also start to fear man more. As KPKH says I have also seen an improvement in my fishing on the Wharfe & Nidd in the last few seasons (although I still get the odd run of blanks !). The improving river water quality that we have all seen in recent years has allowed fish & otters to start to thrive, we have had a couple of good spawning years recently which has resulted in us seeing a lot of small fish showing on some stretches (if the chub & dace that we see at the surface are anything to go by there should also have a good recruitment of barbel fry that we don't see but hopefully will in a few years time). Without culling or the restarting of otter hunts I suspect they are here to stay & a balance will develop (if they have nothing to eat they will either starve or move on (thats when the carp puddles need to worry as they are so attractive due to their overstocking policies). What I have also seen is an increase in the Red Breasted Merganser population (I have seen broods of up to eighteen), now they can make serious inroads in to fry populations & coupled with Cormorants on some stretches I see them as more of an issue than otters. cheers Andy
|
|
|
Post by stevo53 on Aug 10, 2015 16:15:19 GMT
Restoring rivers to their natural state sounds a pretty good objective to me actually. To clarify my point about 'visibility ' of otters; they are easy to see when they are out and about on the river as they are big and not frightened of us . But they mainly operate at times when we anglers aren't out and about . That's why I see spraint and otter prints frequently but otters less so. Mink? Released by stupid animal liberationists and responsible (or so I have read)for the disappearance of water voles. But the trend seems to be (on some pretty crude data ) that mink move out when otters move in and I am seeing the very occasional vole again on two river systems. I see far fewer mink now and they are indeed trapped and shot . Voles are of course protected by the way . Restoring rivers to there natural state, sounds good doesnt It but Is It achievable? some of It maybe but at what cost and what gain? Mans Impact on these rivers goes back many many years and the rivers have to some extent evolved to compensate for mans interference with nature. They have already had a trial at kirkham by opening the sluices at the side of the weir and guess what despite being told what would happen they ignored anglers advice, guess what lowering the level caused considerable bank side erosion and land slips, one of the very things they intend to rectify. If you think restoring the river to its natural state Is a good idea I would read there document online and make your mind up accordingly. Oh and by the way I was pretty sure the voles were protected but they are way down the pecking order compared with otters are they not?
|
|
|
Post by grayson on Aug 10, 2015 18:03:29 GMT
I doubt there is a hierarchy of protection but I haven't checked . And whatever the protected status of any species it doesn't stop one eating another !So I can't kill a vole but a peregrine can and get away with it...
You quote one example of restoration and it certainly isn't easy- law of unintended consequences and all that - but genuinely wild waters (or as close as we can get to them in UK ) are wonderful . I am lucky enough to fish some upland streams which have never been subject to industrial revolution pollution or drainage board 'improvements' and they are a delight - lots of wild fish and healthy invertebrate life. The closest I have come to real wild and natural waters are the lochs in the mountains of NW Scotland- terrific wildlife(including our furry friend) and fish which have bred there since the ice age.
The Wild Trout Trust do some great work on habitat improvement - few would believe that the Upper Witham, with sympathetic management. is now a good trout and grayling stream.
But I do sense that in much of the coarse fishing community there is little appetite for improving rivers by good management. Yes, it is harder to do work on a big river than a little one, but I do feel we can be too quick to moan and too slow to do something positive about perceived concerns . Crackpot theories and conspiracies abound and few seem concerned actually to get objective data- the best approach is to get objective data and analyse it , not to make your mind up and then look for evidence whcih supports the prejudice .
There is also huge naivety - does any sane angler really believe that even if there were data showing otters were really a problem that culling would gain any traction with the public ? Not in a million years.
|
|
|
Post by Eddie on Aug 10, 2015 19:10:53 GMT
It's about time common sense prevailed, why shouldn't we be allowed to protect our fishing! Rivers have been managed for sport for centuries, especially trout and salmon waters and that was probably a major reason for the loss off otter population. Otters on predominantly coarse fisheries doesn't make a lot of sense to me, we value our specimens, why should we sacrifice them (remember this is about the biggest barbel in the country being lost to an otter),to the great otter experiment! It's not really about can the environment sustain an otter population to me, more anglers rights to manage our fisheries, and yes selfishly for our benefit.
Eddie.
|
|
|
Post by smithleback on Aug 10, 2015 21:29:46 GMT
The thing is ive never seen a vole or a mink for that matter with a fish in its mouth,but i have an otter,swimming on its back dragging a good sized barbel with it,its jaws clamped over its snout,until it spotted me then it dived[hopefully the fish got away]That was at newton,never seen an otter till 5-6 yr ago been fishing 30odd yrs,its not rocket science that tarka= specimen fish deaths so what do they bring to the coarse angler,naff all apart from partially eaten specimens and a trail of bubbles now and again,hurrah......brilliant
|
|