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Post by davetipping on Oct 31, 2010 21:47:43 GMT
I seem to recall a report on this forum about some illegal netting occuring during darkness a year or two back. So could it be that the imbalance, or perceived imbalance in stocks is a result of some of the middle to larger sized fish being stolen?
As a matter of interest Steve, how many tench were caught and to what sort of size?
I've seen that carp swimming around - thought it was a ghostie!
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Post by knowbody on Oct 31, 2010 23:49:20 GMT
Frim, unless you drain the place for a full on look see, you will only know how good the netsmen are. Pike tend to be easy, tench tend to be hard to catch with nets. Don't make any daft assumptions on a net draged through a small part of a lake. It's very easy to point blame. The lake may just need you to stop adding extra biomass? Stocking more fish is very rarely the answer to anything other than a preditors dreams, pike, cormorants, otters or anglers. I think the pike worrys are wrong, they are there in sutch numbers for a reason, the reason is not there falt, they are however reacting to it. I think Geoff or Dave's post's may hold as much information as your netsmen's day on pond? We anglers do like to fek about with things after all, you know what I mean. Ask questions as to why it's like this, don't wade in with your boots on untill you know how deep it is At best if your wrong you will kill a lot of fish and then wait for more fish to balance it out while wasteing money throwing good fish after bad. Good luck Frim
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Post by frim on Nov 1, 2010 13:00:17 GMT
Mr k I've not jumped to any daft assumptions or suggested killing fish, I reported as promised for the Thurs night and posted photo's of every species banked. it was a long day and I couldn't possibly get everything that we discussed into one post. Kev, They didn't doubt the lake held bream, but they didn't think there where as many as we suggested when we told them of the catches made earlier in the year. I've been out with quite a few professional nets men, and these lads were as good as any I have seen. There opinions are not cast in stone but are based on years of netting lakes around the country and we have to start somewhere. Dave, Only 3 tench were banked, because of the problems they encountered while netting, they didn't think it likely that fish had been netted and taken away, but didn't dismiss the idea of fish caught on rod and line been stolen. The carp was unusual and a pinkish colour, I just had it down as a koi strain. Steve
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Post by knowbody on Nov 1, 2010 21:58:06 GMT
Frim, What do YOU think is the problem? If there is one?
The place may just be normal for this time of year?
As for the old carp I had it down as an old chagoi (tea coloured primative strain of koi) too, not a "real" resident of the lake, someone probably dumped it in there when it outgrew there pond.
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Post by grahampark on Nov 1, 2010 22:49:58 GMT
Hi Mr K That carp was not dumped from someone's pond, i was there when it went in and it was from a society restocking carried out a few years ago.
Regards Graham
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Post by frim on Nov 2, 2010 1:38:29 GMT
How long you got Mr k, The wrong probably started about 30yrs ago when angling in general started to change and the big societies like Leeds, Birmingham and London had lots of members and pots of cash. Anglers wanted better fishing on lakes around the country, and clubs were in a position to stock stock stock, short term great but Sandwath is probably proving now how wrong they were. I have seen files of documents held by Graham Park at the club, they go back a hundred years but I would bet that none of them mention anything like "balanced or biomas" or more importantly Impact Assessment. Its only now that we realise that people are responsible for nearly all environmental c*ck ups, but a lot of these mistakes are now being put right, cant we do the same in angling? [glow=red,2,300][/glow]I would propose[glow=red,2,300][/glow][glow=red,2,300][/glow] No more mass stockings of any of our fisheries "I have the figures of past stocking at sandwath and there bloody scary" Remove an agreed number of small pike. Remove an agreed number of the small silver fish. Replace with equivalent weight of mature mixed coarse fish. Then stand back and survey again in 5yrs Steve
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Post by knowbody on Nov 3, 2010 0:05:38 GMT
Frim, Thanks for your honisty, it's refreshing! I'm not here for an argument but,...... don't you think "removeing and replaceing" is a tad old school? As for removeing small pike, I see two problems, one is a lack of male fish at spawning time leaving the bigger females eggbound. This will mostly end in death for your bigger pike as they don't reabsorbe eggs like carp type fish, so tend to die in the late summer from blood poisoning as the eggs rot inside them. (not allways though) Two, How will you know that your "agreed" number of small pike are small female fish? you may think this is irelavent, but a 2LB jack that is a girl is more than capable of spawning, not all little ones are blokes. On top of this you are thinking of messing with there food. removeing established dinner and replaceing it with new dumb don't swim away dinner, newly stocked fish take weeks to work out who is nasty and who is nice. I realy would'nt like to guess the outcome. hope I've not put you off the good work your trying to do Graham, Is it possible the blind chagoi was dumped in the pond you restocked it from? It's not uncommon for fish to go walkabout, and that fish is no common.
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Post by gusgreaves on Nov 8, 2010 22:01:21 GMT
You have to go back quite a few years to realize that Sandwath had the perfect environment for pike to flourish because he lake was full of trees. This idea that just allowing nature to take its course and everything will be ok is quite frankly daft. You have to take responsible action and if man is the cause of the in-balance man has to intervene to redress that balance. Good work was done in clearing the trees but by then the in-balance was so great that it will be impossible to control the pike population without intervention. Killing fish is abhorrent to most anglers but in the case of Sandwath, unless a new home can be found for them, there is just no other way. Certainly just sitting on ones backside and doing nothing is not the answer.
The idea that some female pike might become egg bound is never going to happen. If you netted that lake every week for a year you would still get pike in the nets and electro fishing is only effective in waters less than six feet deep.
I remember putting a carp type fish in Sandwath from one of the many stocking of pike food but it was only about 6/8-ounces and we were not sure at the time just what it was. I think it came from the stock ponds at Temple Newsom and there were a few tench in among the roach as well. What I think you have to ask yourself is, dose the problem exist in any of our other lakes and if not why not? The answer in my opinion is that it was just not possible to manage Sandwath until the trees were removed now the society is able over the next few years to do so. Gus Greaves, France.
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Post by knowbody on Nov 8, 2010 22:35:51 GMT
I'm getting the feeling you dont like pike Gus?
There only doing there job, and you wont change that unless you concreat over the water and turn it into a carpark for the new water you wanna dig and "manage" as a figment of your imaginationary perfect fishary.
Why should your perfect fishary be my perfect fishary?
Same old boring arguments.................
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Post by gusgreaves on Nov 9, 2010 14:06:26 GMT
Is Knowbody listening, I have had many fantastic days pike fishing both in the UK and Ireland best was 53 in one day just myself and a friend but in a water very much bigger than Sandwath. What you seem to be saying is that when the pike have eaten everything in the lake they will then eat each other and you then will be a happy chappy. Rats are just doing there job as well but we do not allow them to empty our kitchen of food, we control their number. I absolutely respect your chosen part of the sport and minorities have to be catered for. So your idea of digging out a lake with the sole object of making it a pike fishery would provide somewhere to put the pike out of Sandwath.
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Post by davetipping on Nov 9, 2010 17:23:47 GMT
I thought the idea that killing pike was the answer died out last century.
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Post by frim on Nov 9, 2010 18:37:53 GMT
This is aimed at more than the survey threads. Mr K all your past posts lean towards a natural environment, natural rivers, natural lakes "unmanaged" Can you give us an example of a successfull unmanaged natural fishery? The most revered of all so called natural pools Redmire owes its reputation to stocking and management, all the Oxfordshire Pits, Tring, and other well thought of venues are the same. I've been lucky enough to fish on some of the worlds greatest venues, coarse fishing in Denmark regarded by most as the best in the world "every lake is managed" did you know they place spawning mats for the bream and roach then hang them out to dry to kill it, they even used small trawlers on Skandeborge and the fishing to rods was still brilliant. Every penny of license money in Canada goes back into fisheries management, the salmon fishing's fantastic, sturgeon wouldn't be there without without it, and for me the carp fishing is the best in the world and that's working round a bow fishing season to keep them in check! Spains Ebro system is a prime example of how stocking policies can backfire, some hate the catfish, but others love em and whole communities depend on them, still a management team has been put together to look at any problems. It doesn't matter if its the St Lawrence, Trent, Lake Windemere or a two acre lake in the middle of Kippax or Church Fenton peoples idea of leave them alone doesn't stand up, but all the facts provided by such as the EA show that stocking, and more importantly cropping improve catches.
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Post by gusgreaves on Nov 9, 2010 20:10:53 GMT
Well said Frim when I managed Catterick in order to prevent an explosion of perch, which can result in an outbreak of perch ulcer disease I managed the situation. As in all other managed waters I bundled together bunches of birch branches and threw them in the lake on ropes in early spring. When the perch had finished spawning I would pull out the bundles, which were Leyden with perch spawn and so control the population. I am sure this works with pike as well and as I said when the trees were growing in the lake it was a perfect environment for recruitment of the pike.
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Post by knowbody on Nov 10, 2010 0:12:46 GMT
Frim/guss, All good stuff, good posts fellas. But, the carp in canada are intrduced and f**king up things for the native species so need management, (hence kill them any way you deem fit? bow's, spears , dynamyte.....is it possable this situation came about from "missmanagement"?) likewise the cats on the ebro, (they are just starting to realise this) Tell the barble that used to live there it's ok because we like to stab catfish more these days, the fact that anglers prop up the local econamy is just a short sighted bonus. As for salmon and sturgeon fishing being managed in alaska and canada, well if we had'nt FEKed them in the first place they would be just fine without our help. Sturgeon are managed because they were nearly made an ex species from miss management. How would you manage the silver carp explosion on the mississippi watershed? or closer to home the signals and mitterns? At least pike are native, they belong here, not like carp. I realy car'nt coment on denmark as I've never fished there. As good as these arguments are I hardly think they are relevent to a small lake in yorkshire with a few pike in it. By the way I've fished about the world too, and the best of the best is wild, like were nobody has feked about with Guss, Your tree perch thing is good, they do spawn on branches as a first choise, pike dont though. so the branch theory of to many pike is questionable. Still think your/our (anglers killing pike as they catch them, and stocking exess food) messing with the lake is the reason for so many small pike. Why you both think that you know better than what created it all in the first place is a bit strange to me, but as you probably have worked out by now I am a tad left field. Not only a knowbody but a minoraty too
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Post by frim on Nov 10, 2010 18:13:41 GMT
Nice one Mr K more like days gone by, things were going a bit stale werent they.. I knew you would pick up on sturgeon, cats etc, but you are agreeing with us mate, mismanagment can and must be put right. Things have been put right all over the world, so why not two acre ponds in Yorkshire. Steve
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